TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

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GeeFull
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by GeeFull »

MrWeetabix wrote:
MW6ZAN wrote:Mr wheety i just cannot understand why a hobby like amateur radio is pushing with this digital revolution where by a minority of operators can choose to set up a user group stopping the majority of hams from even listening into the chat, and possibly entering into the qso adding to it. The majority of the bands are fragmented as it is to add a system that can only fragment the bands further seems stupid, thing is it would be nice if the powers that be could set a system once and for all instead of having three digital systems that cannot communicate with each other.

I am with you 100% on this! It promotes 'cliques' and closed-shop operations. Fair enough, promote a digital platform, but that must be open, unencrypted and subject to use by all users.

We're already thin-on-numbers, this type of thing doesn't help
My thoughts exactly!
Amateur radio as always traditionally been a platform that anyone can enjoy with a wide range of equipment from the homebrew, to the black box!
Increasingly it is becoming marginalised, and fragmented, by this vast variety of digital platforms, that you either "buy into", or you don't!
And further marginalise by the modern concept of "private niche circle" communications avenues etc.!
Amateur radio has always been about conversing with the masses of like minded souls, not splitting off into select "user group" areas, where only the "invited" have the opportunity to partake!
Digital is at the moment hailed as the "saviour" of a dying analogue side hobby, especially on VHF/UHF, I strongly suspect with its FAR TOO many diverse and incompatible platforms, it is merely the latest "must have", divide and conquer, nail in the coffin! ;)
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by paulears »

Frankly, I'm finding it refreshing to see that the real amateur spirit exists. I've read the stories and his detailed comments and can see what he's done, and what some of the benefits may be. Equally it's clear that his understanding of the word 'easy' is way, way above my head - which is how it should be. Frankly, the skill level of many new amateurs is painfully low, and this kind of effort is the reason the amateur bands get left with us and not messed up further. Research and development is what amateur radio was really good at, and over the years some useful work has been carried out - like when we were first doing rtty. Back then, people couldn't understand why anyone would want to send amateur text communications. It spread, didn't it! Reverse engineering in the article gave me a few ideas for problems I have had in the past. Photographs and then overlays make generating the circuit so much easier with multi-sided boards. The idea of doing it that way is rather neat. As for all the code they spoke about? Make me wonder if it's something I could look at and learn.

If amateur radio is simply buying a 30 quid radio and using the local repeater, that's a bit sad really. This project, even though I'm not that interested, shows the brainy people are still here, just working quietly and probably not chatting on forums!
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by BK »

For anyone who hasn't seen the video, it's here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSq_bVX2to8
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by MrWeetabix »

Paulears, how many Hams do you know who've reverse-engineered the software and then went on to build their own digitaL radios?

99% will buy into these things because their chums down the club are on it and they don't come on Analogue any more. They won't want to build their own kit, or really give a crap about how it all works, they'll just buy a little black box off the internet and get their mate to come round and put the magic numbers in.
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by kr0ne »

GeeFull wrote: That has to be the funniest comment, and most abused set of rules in the history of the radio hobby! :D
Like most stick to the "rules" on 446 or CB! :lol:
Ah! Now you're just being deliberately obtuse! ;)

You know fine well that the context of this was a call for the government to mandate what modes are permitted to be used on the amateur bands, so let's not bring pirates and illegal operating into it. There are plenty of rule breakers on the amateur bands too after all.
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by kr0ne »

GeeFull wrote: Increasingly it is becoming marginalised, and fragmented, by this vast variety of digital platforms, that you either "buy into", or you don't!
I'm sure the same thing was said about FM, SSB and phone modes in general once upon a time. We still hear it said fairly regularly about non-phone digital modes such as PSK and *gasp* WSPR....... "it's not real radio" :silent:

I'd wager that in the 1900s, when AM was invented, the number of amateurs was but a small fraction of our numbers today and that the "fragmentation" caused to this small group by the introduction of phone modes to the airwaves was infinitely more significant than anything happening today!
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by pete_uk »

What ham 'modes' are encrypted? None as far as I know
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by GeeFull »

kr0ne wrote:
GeeFull wrote: Increasingly it is becoming marginalised, and fragmented, by this vast variety of digital platforms, that you either "buy into", or you don't!
I'm sure the same thing was said about FM, SSB and phone modes in general once upon a time. We still hear it said fairly regularly about non-phone digital modes such as PSK and *gasp* WSPR....... "it's not real radio" :silent:

I'd wager that in the 1900s, when AM was invented, the number of amateurs was but a small fraction of our numbers today and that the "fragmentation" caused to this small group by the introduction of phone modes to the airwaves was infinitely more significant than anything happening today!
Now lets go back "that far" and the various "new modes" that appeared in amateur radio, all of which were analogue based.
So we started out with raspy spark gap transmissions, decodable with a simple RX and diode detector, we then moved to AM modulated phone transmissions, which could be easily resolved on existing equipment, and transmitted quite simply with the home brew addition of an audio amplifier circuit, suitable microphone, and modulation transformer!
Then SSB arrived, DSB in the first instance, and reception was possible on any AM RX out in the field, with the simple addition of a BFO, push come to shove!
For TX a very basic modulator could be fabricated, at its most basic, a simple "ring of diodes" inserted after the local prime oscillator, plus a bit of audio injected modulation.
Then FM, on RX it could be either decoded with a simple dedicated FM discriminator, again could be simple diode based pre "IC's dedicated for the job, or at a push simply "slope tuned" on an AM RX.
For TX, it simply required a varactor diode, or similar frequency shifting circuit, plus again some audio from the mic, suitably amplified, for correct deviation level.
This continued for many years, with folks being able to "modify" their current homebrew gear.
Fast forward to D-Star, the first real amateur digital voice platform, initially it was well beyond experimentation for the average amateur, not easy to "modify" that perfectly working FM set for the new fangled D-Star mode, so it was Icom off the shelf, or nothing.
SWL's were completely shot in the foot!
Ok, so these days "others" have chipped in with various dongles, and some PC based software, and the like, but its still mainly "off the shelf".
A complete divergance from what traditionally went before, as you could not simply "get the soldering iron out" and convert what you had to hand.
And this same idea has followed with most of the new "digital" modes, they are in the main proprietary, and not something the "have a go" amateur can knock up and actively take part in!
Unless "buying into" the latest must have mode, you are basically "excluded" from that aspect of the hobby, or even SWL general listening.
In that respect alone I feel they are not in the "general spirit" of true amateur radio, and what it traditionally espouses, namely simple shack based experimentation, and the readily available means for most with a soldering iron, and bit of radio knowledge to homebrew dabble "join in"!
Dress up "progress" any way you like, but when it increasingly takes away the soldering iron do it for yourself avenue, and instead promotes "this is what you want, black boxed at X pounds!, if you don't want to fall behind", then its NOT really amateur radio, its professional radio, cleverly packaged, marketed, and hyped, and sold to ever gullible "amateur users", no more!
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by paulears »

For as long as I remember, there have been local 'pioneers' - who do have the skills to make interesting stuff available. In this case, a few really top notch people might well make the mods available to others with less developed skills. That's always been the way. Same thing happened when somebody discovered a few mods for early satellite receivers so they could receive 1.3GHz amateur TV, and locally, we'd source second hand receivers and the two guys would modify them with new eeproms and a few component changes. When repeaters were all blue with PYE on the front there would be the few who could design and build the logic to make them work - again I couldn't, but they could.

More recently we have the people who took the TV dongles and wrote the software many people now use to receive and decode all sorts of stuff.

Of course this is amateur radio. I understand people not wishing to bother with learning to do it themselves - this is just how everything is now, but I wish I had the ability these guys have - technology moves on. Always has - thank God!
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by kr0ne »

GeeFull, I'm curious what proportion of currently licensed amateurs in the UK you would suspect actually build and operate their own transmitting and receiving equipment? Or what proportion might even be capable of doing so without using a pre-prepared and pre-tested kit?

I rather suspect that the vast majority out there are primarily using very expensive "black boxes" to rag chew on HF, although that's just a hunch!

Just because one amateur doesn't have an interest in experimenting with digital things, doesn't mean that others don't and it certainly doesn't mean that others cannot! A quick trawl around this very forum will reveal many people experimenting with all sorts of new technology in a very much 'hands on' way that absolutely empitomises the amateur spirit.

Sure, much may be borrowed from the world of 'professional radio' but isn't that where we borrowed all of our more traditional analogue modes from as well? I freely admit that amateur radio history is not my strong point, but has the amateur community itself actually developed any modes that are not digital in nature?

I don't think that anyone is saying that people should be forced to use modes that they do not want to, but lets not forget that the comment that sparked this entire debate was a call for "the powers that be" to stipulate a single digital mode as the only digital mode permitted for use on the amateur bands!

Seriously. WTF? (pardon francais) It's fair enough to lament the way things are changing within our hobby and what that may or may not mean for the future, but it is quite another thing to call for one person's views to be imposed on how others participate in their hobby!

If we are going to head down a path of forcing everyone to use certain modes in order to stop "fragmanetation" of our already small user base, then we should probably start with banning things like microwave, EME, the very interesting optical experiments we've been hearing about over the last few years, satellites and any other niche areas where the number of particpants able to talk to each other are relatively small...
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by Admiral »

The beauty of amateur radio is that there are no rules that say you can't use a hacked radio, in the rest of the radio world hacked firmware means an invalid radio and probably an illegal transmission, not so for us, we can use anything we choose so long as our splatter and harmonics are under control.

This thread has gone way off on a tangent, so not much use keeping an eye out here, but if this hacked stuff becomes freely available in the future then I may have a dabble.

I have had a couple of weeks away with work, and on my return I have found to my delight that the NoV for GB7PE has now gone active, sitting in my front room on a cheap handie chatting with a guy in Canada, but I guess that's not 'real radio' for some, but if it isn't, have your say and then leave it, go somewhere else and pontificate the positives about the part of the hobby you enjoy, start a 'who loves morse code' thread or a satellite thread, neither for me thanks, but I won't write an essay on why I think they are bad for the hobby.
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by FakeJake »

Fusion repeaters can be used by anyone in FM mode. And you can listen in when it's in digital mode without expensive new radios if you want. All you need is one of those £10 RTL SDRs.

Re: working via internet linked repeaters: digital or not, as long as people know they are only really working the repeater, then the Internet to eg. Canada, more power to them I say.

Personally I have no ill will towards anyone that wants to pursue and experiment with digital modes or Internet linking. It's bloody amateur radio! That's what it's for! ;)
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by MW6ZAN »

The only problem i have with the digital mode is that it should have specific frequency slots in the current band plans. At the moment its used all over the bands, as the majority of us not so well off amateurs who cannot dip into an everlasting money tree to pay for such kit with hand sets in the 350 price range, all we have is analogue gear. am ssb they can live together digital and analogue unfortunatly cannot do this, as a new technology it should have its own specific place on the bands and should not be intermixed. If your into digi good luck to you but remember this when you key that ptt we as analogue users have to put up with digital noise, as digital users you dont have the same problem food for thought i think.73 -•-
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by kr0ne »

MW6ZAN wrote:The only problem i have with the digital mode is that it should have specific frequency slots in the current band plans.
Err... they do? http://rsgb.org/main/operating/band-plans/

Whether or not people stick to the 'gentleman's agreement' that is the bandplan is another matter, but hardly a digital problem. Where I used to live there was a long running FM net on a frequency allocated to satellites in the band plan. Ruined many a pass for me, but nothing I could do about it and hardly worth getting worked up over.
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Re: TYT MD380 firmware reverse engineered

Post by Admiral »

I knew I would sort of agree with MW6ZAN one day.

Yes, I can't disagree that digital and analogue stuff should be strictly separated, but a gentlemans agreement is worthless and unenforceable, but I fear the horse has already bolted with regards to repeaters anyway. The RSGB Ltd bandplans aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

I can use DMR 'mode' on S20 if I so chose (actually that's a lie as I only have UHF DMR), it would be very ungentlemanly, but I don't think there would be any contraventions of my licence, but I stand to be corrected.

95% of my kit is analogue, but digital is the future of V/UHF and it's fun dipping my toe in the water, it really isn't expensive and elitist, my handie cost £108.99 brand new with programming lead and software to my door, about the price of a decent VSWR meter.
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