President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
- Phuture
- Super Member
- Posts: 252
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 14:01
President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Hi,
I've got a President Ronald (EPT360011Z PCB) that under a certain condition fails to change frequency (stuck around 27.971 MHz) or transmit when switched to the "Lo" bands; however, on the "Hi" bands it appears to function normally. Based on a few T1 posts I found on here, I believe I have a President Ronald 1 as the PCB version is EPT360011Z and it's 6 band.
I attempted carrying out a full alignment, as per the French version of the service manual and a little of the Secret CB Superstar 3900 (Hi Band) alignment procedure, to see if somehow the PLL was out of lock for the low bands but I initially hit a problem when trying to confirm AM, Band A, Channel 7 is 2.0V (TP2, R109). Secret CB advises the check is 2.2V on Channel 1, but this doesn't change the result. The voltage I get is over 8V on Bands A to C, on any channel even though I've successfully set the radio via L17 to 5.0V on Band F, channel 40, as per the service manual. As I say, the Hi bands, D to F, appear to be responding normally to band and channel changes, though I've not carried out a full channel-to-frequency check yet.
Anyway, I had the radio turned off overnight and returned to it to continue to troubleshoot. On turning on, the low band channels and complete function, including transmit, were working So, I tried to continue with the alignment and found I was able to confirm 2.0V (TP2 R109) on AM, Band A, channel 7 and roughly 2.2V on channel 1 (Secret CB procedure). So far, so good. So then I go to the next step, which is to connect the FC to TP3 (R74); set AM Clarifier centred, Band C, Channel 19; and then adjust "A" to obtain 16.040 MHz 9 (according to Secret CB). This setting appears to be quite off and drifting rapidly between 16.04746 and 16.04755 MHz so I bring it back down to 16.040 MHz, but its still bouncing around this frequency. I then switch to USB for the next step and that's when the frequency counter jumps to 17.27995 MHz and stays thereabouts no matter where the mode switch is set. The radio's frequency counter is then back showing around 27.971 MHz and changes only the last digit, plus or minus a few kHz, up or down, but not stably or consistently. I then switch the radio off and on - no change - then off for an hour to let it cool down. Switching it back on restores a functioning low band setting again. Looking at the FC I can see that the 16.040 MHz I set earlier has jumped to over 16.042 MHz and rapidly drifting up to around roughly +/- 500 Hz. Leaving the radio to warm up, it drifts down to about 16.0385 MHz, so I bring it back up to 16.040 MHz, or thereabouts as it jumps and falls up to around +/- 300 Hz. Then, switching from AM to USB causes the problem all over again and the FC to show 17.27995 MHz (TP3, R74) and the on-board FC to show 27.971 MHz. By the way, the radio will receive on 27.971 MHz, just not change with the channel selector. It'll change a little, as I mentioned, but seemingly randomly by just a +/- 1kHz, so I can still here my mod tone for instance.
I'm guessing I may have a problem with the 14.010 MHz xtal but would appreciate some expert advice on this if possibe?
Cheers
I've got a President Ronald (EPT360011Z PCB) that under a certain condition fails to change frequency (stuck around 27.971 MHz) or transmit when switched to the "Lo" bands; however, on the "Hi" bands it appears to function normally. Based on a few T1 posts I found on here, I believe I have a President Ronald 1 as the PCB version is EPT360011Z and it's 6 band.
I attempted carrying out a full alignment, as per the French version of the service manual and a little of the Secret CB Superstar 3900 (Hi Band) alignment procedure, to see if somehow the PLL was out of lock for the low bands but I initially hit a problem when trying to confirm AM, Band A, Channel 7 is 2.0V (TP2, R109). Secret CB advises the check is 2.2V on Channel 1, but this doesn't change the result. The voltage I get is over 8V on Bands A to C, on any channel even though I've successfully set the radio via L17 to 5.0V on Band F, channel 40, as per the service manual. As I say, the Hi bands, D to F, appear to be responding normally to band and channel changes, though I've not carried out a full channel-to-frequency check yet.
Anyway, I had the radio turned off overnight and returned to it to continue to troubleshoot. On turning on, the low band channels and complete function, including transmit, were working So, I tried to continue with the alignment and found I was able to confirm 2.0V (TP2 R109) on AM, Band A, channel 7 and roughly 2.2V on channel 1 (Secret CB procedure). So far, so good. So then I go to the next step, which is to connect the FC to TP3 (R74); set AM Clarifier centred, Band C, Channel 19; and then adjust "A" to obtain 16.040 MHz 9 (according to Secret CB). This setting appears to be quite off and drifting rapidly between 16.04746 and 16.04755 MHz so I bring it back down to 16.040 MHz, but its still bouncing around this frequency. I then switch to USB for the next step and that's when the frequency counter jumps to 17.27995 MHz and stays thereabouts no matter where the mode switch is set. The radio's frequency counter is then back showing around 27.971 MHz and changes only the last digit, plus or minus a few kHz, up or down, but not stably or consistently. I then switch the radio off and on - no change - then off for an hour to let it cool down. Switching it back on restores a functioning low band setting again. Looking at the FC I can see that the 16.040 MHz I set earlier has jumped to over 16.042 MHz and rapidly drifting up to around roughly +/- 500 Hz. Leaving the radio to warm up, it drifts down to about 16.0385 MHz, so I bring it back up to 16.040 MHz, or thereabouts as it jumps and falls up to around +/- 300 Hz. Then, switching from AM to USB causes the problem all over again and the FC to show 17.27995 MHz (TP3, R74) and the on-board FC to show 27.971 MHz. By the way, the radio will receive on 27.971 MHz, just not change with the channel selector. It'll change a little, as I mentioned, but seemingly randomly by just a +/- 1kHz, so I can still here my mod tone for instance.
I'm guessing I may have a problem with the 14.010 MHz xtal but would appreciate some expert advice on this if possibe?
Cheers
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- 1968neil
- Regular
- Posts: 75
- Joined: 17 Sep 2018, 21:30
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
I would try changing C120 to 270pf and C75 to 56pf (use NP0 caps), then performing a re-alignment of the 14 MHz oscillator in accordance with the service manual.
Remove the KIA6410S (IC10) and replace it with a genuine Toshiba TA7310, this will improve stability no end.
For some reason the KIA6410S is not a very stable device maybe a cheaply produced component ?
The set up is critical, follow the manual to the letter and you should be good to go, if you haven't got proper test gear then i'd suggest having it set up professionally.
Good Luck
Regards
Neil
Remove the KIA6410S (IC10) and replace it with a genuine Toshiba TA7310, this will improve stability no end.
For some reason the KIA6410S is not a very stable device maybe a cheaply produced component ?
The set up is critical, follow the manual to the letter and you should be good to go, if you haven't got proper test gear then i'd suggest having it set up professionally.
Good Luck
Regards
Neil
- Phuture
- Super Member
- Posts: 252
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 14:01
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Thanks for your reply, Neil
I've got proper test gear, so no issue there. Is IC10 inside the metal-canned sub-board module (sorry, I don't have the radio or schematics in front of me at present)? All the IC part number markings appear to have been removed with acid inside it.
I've just noticed that the white wire on the 3-wire (blue, red, white) link connector to the sub-board/module has detached from a solder tag, presumably from one of the rotary switches on the front panel. I'm not sure if this has just happened or has been detached for a while. It doesn't seem to have changed the current state of the radio, so perhaps it's been detached for a while. Would you or anyone know where I should solder this wire back to - most of the schematics I've found are a poor resolution, quality or don't show all the internal connections? Do you have a good copy yourself that you could share? A photo of the back panel wiring would be useful if anyone has one.
Thanks
I've got proper test gear, so no issue there. Is IC10 inside the metal-canned sub-board module (sorry, I don't have the radio or schematics in front of me at present)? All the IC part number markings appear to have been removed with acid inside it.
I've just noticed that the white wire on the 3-wire (blue, red, white) link connector to the sub-board/module has detached from a solder tag, presumably from one of the rotary switches on the front panel. I'm not sure if this has just happened or has been detached for a while. It doesn't seem to have changed the current state of the radio, so perhaps it's been detached for a while. Would you or anyone know where I should solder this wire back to - most of the schematics I've found are a poor resolution, quality or don't show all the internal connections? Do you have a good copy yourself that you could share? A photo of the back panel wiring would be useful if anyone has one.
Thanks
- 14CS06
- Top Poster
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- Joined: 04 Mar 2012, 09:15
- Location: JN33LN - ALPES-MARITIMES-06 France
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Photo Collector CB RADIO
- Phuture
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Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Ah great, thanks Claude - all very useful. I've worked out the solder tag from one of your photos. Will solder it back on and feed back.
- Phuture
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- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 14:01
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Okay, so no change to the problem but at least the wire is soldered back on where it should be. I need to swap out the 7-segment LED channel display as I have an LED out on the second digit. The text printed on the side is "RI-DA45" but there's nothing on the underside. Would anyone know the direct replacement part code to replace dual digit 7-segment display (green) as I'm not finding anything under RI-DA45?
- 14CS06
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Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Photo Collector CB RADIO
- cb4ever104
- Legend
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- Joined: 28 Jul 2011, 21:26
- Location: España
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
I have green leds available here :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132822947351
If I were you the first thing I would do would be to recap the whole radio . I guarantee that that will solve some for those niggly issues around the VCO/local oscillator . After that it's a case of going through the manual , checking each mode and band as you go along. Those little fixed inductors on the AM/USB/LSB lines can give issues sometimes as well .
Cheers
Sammy
Last edited by cb4ever104 on 17 Oct 2018, 10:33, edited 1 time in total.
30TM060
Paul aka "Sammy". (108) PY60 Old Paisley DX Group (RIP Rab Markie)
Ex GM0 , now EA5 .
Handle "Fortune Hunter" back in "the day"
Radios ....? Anything that says "TAIWAN R.O.C" on the back.
Paul aka "Sammy". (108) PY60 Old Paisley DX Group (RIP Rab Markie)
Ex GM0 , now EA5 .
Handle "Fortune Hunter" back in "the day"
Radios ....? Anything that says "TAIWAN R.O.C" on the back.
- GusWroclaw
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- Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Phuture are these voltages you mentioned the output of the phase detector? Or the input of the VFO? I'm asking out of curiosity.
161-TM-313 - Midland Alan 42
- Phuture
- Super Member
- Posts: 252
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 14:01
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Thanks all for your advice and suggestions. I managed to find a 7-segment green display replacement in a friend's scrap box , but thanks for the link cb4ever104 - I've saved it for future reference.
GusWroclaw, as per step 4 of the Secret CB alignment procedure attached (step 7 in French version), the voltage readings were taken at TP2, R109. R109 hangs directly off pin 7 of IC5 (MC145106P), the PLL frequency synthesiser, so the output of the phase detector.
GusWroclaw, as per step 4 of the Secret CB alignment procedure attached (step 7 in French version), the voltage readings were taken at TP2, R109. R109 hangs directly off pin 7 of IC5 (MC145106P), the PLL frequency synthesiser, so the output of the phase detector.
- cb4ever104
- Legend
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- Joined: 28 Jul 2011, 21:26
- Location: España
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Just a couple of points . This radio doesn't use an IC packaged VCO . It uses a varicap .1968neil wrote: ↑16 Oct 2018, 09:06 I would try changing C120 to 270pf and C75 to 56pf (use NP0 caps), then performing a re-alignment of the 14 MHz oscillator in accordance with the service manual.
Remove the KIA6410S (IC10) and replace it with a genuine Toshiba TA7310, this will improve stability no end.
For some reason the KIA6410S is not a very stable device maybe a cheaply produced component ?
The set up is critical, follow the manual to the letter and you should be good to go, if you haven't got proper test gear then i'd suggest having it set up professionally.
Good Luck
Regards
Neil
The metal canned sub board is the frequency counter board .
Cheers
Sammy
30TM060
Paul aka "Sammy". (108) PY60 Old Paisley DX Group (RIP Rab Markie)
Ex GM0 , now EA5 .
Handle "Fortune Hunter" back in "the day"
Radios ....? Anything that says "TAIWAN R.O.C" on the back.
Paul aka "Sammy". (108) PY60 Old Paisley DX Group (RIP Rab Markie)
Ex GM0 , now EA5 .
Handle "Fortune Hunter" back in "the day"
Radios ....? Anything that says "TAIWAN R.O.C" on the back.
- Phuture
- Super Member
- Posts: 252
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 14:01
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Very good point - thanks. Sammy. I guess the newer version of the schematic is what Neil was looking using for reference. Work on the radio is somewhat on hold until I install the channel display as I've remove the faulty one but not had a chance to install the replacement yet and the radio is currently on the bench in bits. Hopefully get to it this weekend to continue faultfinding the main issue. I'll check the caps around the xtals to see how they're holding up and decide then whether or not to they would seem to be root cause of the symptoms I've described.
Cheers very much
Tony
Cheers very much
Tony
- cb4ever104
- Legend
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Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Hi Tony .
I had similar VCO problems with one of my old Taiwan Grants . I recapped it and it's like a new radio . I'm not saying that's your problem , but these early 11Z radios are getting on in age now , and for me new caps are a must .
Also . You'll be hard pushed to find a proper diagram for the 11Z . You can see that the one Clause posted isn't right as there's only one local oscillator in that one , and you have 2 . I posted some info here when I was working on my Franklin .
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=50627&hilit=EPT360011Z
To be honest most of the EPT3600 pcbs are pretty similar , but the LO/Hi band switching on the 11Z is a bit more complex .
Cheers
Sammy
I had similar VCO problems with one of my old Taiwan Grants . I recapped it and it's like a new radio . I'm not saying that's your problem , but these early 11Z radios are getting on in age now , and for me new caps are a must .
Also . You'll be hard pushed to find a proper diagram for the 11Z . You can see that the one Clause posted isn't right as there's only one local oscillator in that one , and you have 2 . I posted some info here when I was working on my Franklin .
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=50627&hilit=EPT360011Z
To be honest most of the EPT3600 pcbs are pretty similar , but the LO/Hi band switching on the 11Z is a bit more complex .
Cheers
Sammy
30TM060
Paul aka "Sammy". (108) PY60 Old Paisley DX Group (RIP Rab Markie)
Ex GM0 , now EA5 .
Handle "Fortune Hunter" back in "the day"
Radios ....? Anything that says "TAIWAN R.O.C" on the back.
Paul aka "Sammy". (108) PY60 Old Paisley DX Group (RIP Rab Markie)
Ex GM0 , now EA5 .
Handle "Fortune Hunter" back in "the day"
Radios ....? Anything that says "TAIWAN R.O.C" on the back.
- Phuture
- Super Member
- Posts: 252
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 14:01
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
Hi all,
Resuming this post as I got round to replacing the 7-segment LED display and re-capping most of the radio, bar a few that tested as well within spec and apparently healthy. Unfortunately this made no difference to the original fault I posted the symptoms of earlier in this post, but I have learnt a few things about my particular radio and more of the fault symptoms.
My radio's 11Z circuit seems to more closely match that of the Super Galaxy schematic linked below only for the fact that its the only schematic I've found showing the same 10.240 MHz load cap, C76 (33p), as my radio and additionally all the test points are where my radio has them. Furthermore, I see that both local oscillator crystals (X2 and x4) are shown, but they are also on the schematic Claude posted.
www.cbtricks.com/pub/secret_cb/vol_28/g ... g38_39.pdf
As far as the actual fault goes, I tried again to carry out as much of the PLL alignment procedure as I could to ensure the VFO was set correctly. The problems start at step 5 of the Secret CB alignment procedure (attached to the start of this post) when setting variable inductor "A". The frequency reading begins in the right ballpark at around 16.040 MHz (AM) but is unstable and swings around the target frequency, sometimes by as much as +/- 300Hz. However, the more obvious failure is when trying to set variable inductors "B" (USB) and "C" (LSB). The frequency counter shows that the frequency at R74 for B and C inductors is way off, but the same for each, at 17.234 MHz (instead of 16.0425 MHz and 16.0375 MHz respectively) and increases steadily from switch-on. So, I'm wondering where to start with this, bearing in mind that with the Hi/Lo button in the in position for Hi, the radio seems to be functioning normally both on Rx and Tx.
I've read bits and pieces of posts on T1 that refer to the 15.360MHz and 14.010MHz crystals but, other than typically a little age-related drift, are they a cause of faults like the one I'm experiencing? Since it's the A,B and C variable inductors that control the reference frequencies in question here I guess it would be the 14.010MHz crystal soldered to the can of A that would be at fault, assuming it's the source. I'm intending to check the diodes around the these crystals but anyone suggest what other checks would be worthwhile to try to isolate this one?
Thanks!
Resuming this post as I got round to replacing the 7-segment LED display and re-capping most of the radio, bar a few that tested as well within spec and apparently healthy. Unfortunately this made no difference to the original fault I posted the symptoms of earlier in this post, but I have learnt a few things about my particular radio and more of the fault symptoms.
My radio's 11Z circuit seems to more closely match that of the Super Galaxy schematic linked below only for the fact that its the only schematic I've found showing the same 10.240 MHz load cap, C76 (33p), as my radio and additionally all the test points are where my radio has them. Furthermore, I see that both local oscillator crystals (X2 and x4) are shown, but they are also on the schematic Claude posted.
www.cbtricks.com/pub/secret_cb/vol_28/g ... g38_39.pdf
As far as the actual fault goes, I tried again to carry out as much of the PLL alignment procedure as I could to ensure the VFO was set correctly. The problems start at step 5 of the Secret CB alignment procedure (attached to the start of this post) when setting variable inductor "A". The frequency reading begins in the right ballpark at around 16.040 MHz (AM) but is unstable and swings around the target frequency, sometimes by as much as +/- 300Hz. However, the more obvious failure is when trying to set variable inductors "B" (USB) and "C" (LSB). The frequency counter shows that the frequency at R74 for B and C inductors is way off, but the same for each, at 17.234 MHz (instead of 16.0425 MHz and 16.0375 MHz respectively) and increases steadily from switch-on. So, I'm wondering where to start with this, bearing in mind that with the Hi/Lo button in the in position for Hi, the radio seems to be functioning normally both on Rx and Tx.
I've read bits and pieces of posts on T1 that refer to the 15.360MHz and 14.010MHz crystals but, other than typically a little age-related drift, are they a cause of faults like the one I'm experiencing? Since it's the A,B and C variable inductors that control the reference frequencies in question here I guess it would be the 14.010MHz crystal soldered to the can of A that would be at fault, assuming it's the source. I'm intending to check the diodes around the these crystals but anyone suggest what other checks would be worthwhile to try to isolate this one?
Thanks!
Last edited by Phuture on 18 Dec 2018, 23:35, edited 2 times in total.
- cb4ever104
- Legend
- Posts: 6561
- Joined: 28 Jul 2011, 21:26
- Location: España
Re: President Ronald - Lo Bands Problem
You could always switch the crystals over and see if the LOW band works then . That way you'll narrow it down a bit . The fact that AM seems stable"ish" would indicate to me that the 14.010 is good . Normally I'd be looking around the VCO , but if AM is good then that it doesn't sound as if it's that . Are the +8V voltages OK going into the AM/USB and LSB lines OK on the LOW band ?
30TM060
Paul aka "Sammy". (108) PY60 Old Paisley DX Group (RIP Rab Markie)
Ex GM0 , now EA5 .
Handle "Fortune Hunter" back in "the day"
Radios ....? Anything that says "TAIWAN R.O.C" on the back.
Paul aka "Sammy". (108) PY60 Old Paisley DX Group (RIP Rab Markie)
Ex GM0 , now EA5 .
Handle "Fortune Hunter" back in "the day"
Radios ....? Anything that says "TAIWAN R.O.C" on the back.