HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

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g4ilo
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by g4ilo » 17 Mar 2011, 13:22

Many years ago I had an antenna similar to those. It was made by G-Whip which I think may be the same company. It uses the principle of top loading with capacity hats to cover multiple bands.

As with those, mine was claimed to work with just a single ground spike. But like any vertical its performance can be improved using more radials.

Like any antenna it will also work better high and in the clear. Unfortunately mine was located in the typical British postage stamp sized garden surrounded by hedges, bushes and buildings. Hence it lived up to the claim that "a vertical is an antenna that radiates equally poorly in all directions."

I think it is a good design. It's just that few of us own the kind of real estate that allows verticals to work to their full potential.
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by 26TM5890 » 17 Mar 2011, 13:24

Atomic wrote:@bitman , no mate thats with the atu in the ts2000 it will tune the mk5 thunderpole easy enough , but im looking into getting either the Sirio 827 or Sigma Mantova Turbo which ive seen tune as low as 40 with some guys getting good reports ok might not be super duper repoprts compared to say a mono band vertical dedicated for 20 or 40 but none the less still has good ears and TX from what ive heard , im just wondering how they cope with strong winds , will it still be up there after the winter lol
both do have radials what i can't use either. also a fibre antenna is less in the picture, if you know what i mean.

which i had my own house with a big garden and no neightbours around :!:
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by northern35s » 17 Mar 2011, 13:38

mangina wrote:
northern35s wrote:For there to be 0dB loss in your ground radial system, for a 0.25WL ground mounted antenna, you would need 120 0.4WL equally spaced wire radials, the less and shorter they are the more the loss, that said, 16 radials at 0.1WL will only show a loss of -3dB compared to the ideal, the bonus being 52ohm feedpoint impedance ;)
i dont think the Q was re a quarter wave .

on a multibander , if they are on /in the ground they won't be tuned. The idea is lowering the gnd resistance .. 4 radials is better than none and 10 is better than 4 etc, its a simple exercise of laying as many as you can.. chicken wire and allsorts is used as you probably know all in an attempt to lower this resistance.


if said 1/4 wave antenna was sat on a tin roof it wouldnt need radials so the actaul radial is just a means of reducing the ground resistance, the more the better to an extent

a statement like yours just adds to any confusion someone may have .. who do you know with 120 radials around any vert let alone 120 quarter wave tuned radials round a 1/4 wave antenna?
I'm sorry you're confused, and you seem make a lot of sweeping generalisations about what the OP, or other readers for that matter, understand, the original question was:

Hi all im looking into buying a vertical antenna for hf work

No reference to multiband, no reference to single band, 1/2 or 1/4WL, just vertical HF, I originally suggested the OP forget something that does all bands, I feel it's important to express the limitations posed by installing inefficient antenna systems, if we have an understanding of what works best, we can use that information to build / design something that works well and be under no illusion as to why we don't have a rock crushing signal the other side of the World.

For info, I haven't mention tuned 1/4WL radials in any of my posts in this thread, and the relevance to how many people I know with 120 radials is as relevant to this discussion as the amount of people I know that have a 3 element 160m beam, if you want a discussion on the merits of minimal ground radials as opposed to many ground radials I suggest you start a thread and I'll gladly join in the discussion.
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by mangina » 17 Mar 2011, 13:48

northern35s wrote:
You say you have a small garden, so an extensive ground network is out of the question, this pretty much rules out a ground mounted vertical,

that was one of you first bits of advice without knowing anything about how big the garden actually was..
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by mangina » 17 Mar 2011, 13:51

northern35s wrote:For there to be 0dB loss in your ground radial system, for a 0.25WL ground mounted antenna, you would need 120 0.4WL equally spaced wire radials, the less and shorter they are the more the loss, that said, 16 radials at 0.1WL will only show a loss of -3dB compared to the ideal, the bonus being 52ohm feedpoint impedance ;)

are you not refering to a 1/4 wave here? stop trying to be g3txq ;)
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by northern35s » 17 Mar 2011, 14:02

mangina wrote:
northern35s wrote:For there to be 0dB loss in your ground radial system, for a 0.25WL ground mounted antenna, you would need 120 0.4WL equally spaced wire radials, the less and shorter they are the more the loss, that said, 16 radials at 0.1WL will only show a loss of -3dB compared to the ideal, the bonus being 52ohm feedpoint impedance ;)

are you not refering to a 1/4 wave here? stop trying to be g3txq ;)
Just why you would go down the route of an Ad Hominem I've no idea, it is usually the sign of an argument that has run out of steam, as for G3TXQ, you've got me baffled :? If you read again at what is written, maybe you can point out where I refer to 1/4WL ground radials :?:
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by northern35s » 17 Mar 2011, 14:03

mangina wrote:
northern35s wrote:
You say you have a small garden, so an extensive ground network is out of the question, this pretty much rules out a ground mounted vertical,

that was one of you first bits of advice without knowing anything about how big the garden actually was..
Small, I think you'll find :roll:
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by Atomic » 17 Mar 2011, 14:55

Well i just bit the bullet and went for a Sirio 827 , now im looking for something that will work well on 20,40 and 80 meters .

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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by mangina » 17 Mar 2011, 15:03

northern35s wrote:
mangina wrote:
northern35s wrote:
You say you have a small garden, so an extensive ground network is out of the question, this pretty much rules out a ground mounted vertical,

that was one of you first bits of advice without knowing anything about how big the garden actually was..
Small, I think you'll find :roll:

define "small" his "small " garden may be 40x 40 foot. big enough for a radial system on a ground mounted vert.. not after an argument just don't think it right jumping to conclusions and reccommending stuff or ruling stuff out without first knowing an important factor of what his meaning of small was.
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by Atomic » 17 Mar 2011, 15:05

Yeah my garden aint the biggest as i have a huge 15ft by 8ft shed at the side , so for laying radials ect i wont have much room ...

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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by northern35s » 17 Mar 2011, 16:53

mangina wrote:
northern35s wrote:
mangina wrote: that was one of you first bits of advice without knowing anything about how big the garden actually was..
Small, I think you'll find :roll:

define "small" his "small " garden may be 40x 40 foot. big enough for a radial system on a ground mounted vert.. not after an argument just don't think it right jumping to conclusions and reccommending stuff or ruling stuff out without first knowing an important factor of what his meaning of small was.
I don't know what your problem is, and to be honest I'm not interested either, I made the same assumptions as you did when the OP said his garden was small, or you wouldn't have recommended radials or antennas suitable for a small garden, why didn't you ask him to define small if it concerns you so much now? pointless petty bickering and again adds nothing to the OP's original question.
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by mattltm » 17 Mar 2011, 20:01

10M roach pole with the top section taken out, 9M of wire up the middle and as many radials as you can lay.

I have mine connected to an SGC-211 ATU at the base. Works from 160 all the way up to 6 with no problems and good performance on all bands.

I find myself going to the garden whenever I get a surplus piece of wire and adding it to the ground network. Started with 8 radials, now must have around 80 all buried in the lawn!
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by northern35s » 17 Mar 2011, 20:56

mattltm wrote:10M roach pole with the top section taken out, 9M of wire up the middle and as many radials as you can lay.

I have mine connected to an SGC-211 ATU at the base. Works from 160 all the way up to 6 with no problems and good performance on all bands.

I find myself going to the garden whenever I get a surplus piece of wire and adding it to the ground network. Started with 8 radials, now must have around 80 all buried in the lawn!
Probably the best way to feed a multiband vert.
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by SV1LHZ » 18 Jan 2017, 10:55

My 5/8 vertical Antenna SIRIO 827 is working perfect by using ATU (Automatic Antenna Tuner) LDG AT-200 PRO II on the following bands: 10m , 12m , 15m , 17m & 20m.I have worked long distances QSOs (outside of Europe) with strong radio reports during the day.
At nights I use to be active on the 40m & 80m bands but this Antenna is working moderate.I mean that I have a good reception but not good transmission.It's normal for it's size.It's transmission going well only inside Europe on 40m & 80m badns.
Outside of Europe is too difficult especially in a pile up!

My Transceiver is a KENWOOD TS-480HX (200 Watt) and my ATU (Automatic Antenna Tuner) is LDG AT-200 PRO II.
SIRIO 827 is a good choice in my opinion for those who can not put big Multiband Antennas (Directional or Vertical)

Friendly ,

SV1LHZ Jim (Athens-Greece)

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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by steepeljack69 » 21 Jan 2017, 15:19

I have the Sigma eurocom hf360,it works great on all bands apart from top band.Looks similar to a antron99,a couple of bands have t use a external tunner,but for the money its great.The cheaper aluminium version they make is also good for money,I had the Snowdonia version,wish I'd never got rid.I have had a Cobwebb,that was good but went only to 20m.

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