HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

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Atomic
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HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by Atomic » 16 Mar 2011, 16:34

Hi all im looking into buying a vertical antenna for hf work , as my garden is kinda small it's the only real route i can go down... im just seeking advice on what the best is to buy , Any help is most greatfull .

Regards Chris.

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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by northern35s » 16 Mar 2011, 17:12

Wanting to work HF is quite a broad statement, do you want to work all bands, or are you happy to work a few bands?

There's a World of difference between being able to work all bands, and work them well, my advice would be not to get sucked into the unun fed vertical route and expect to work 160m through to 6m, do it incrementally and don't expect miracles.

You say you have a small garden, so an extensive ground network is out of the question, this pretty much rules out a ground mounted vertical, something along the lines of a Hustler 5BTV, however there are a couple of routes you could follow, A Sirio 827 will work great on 10 and 12m, it will work well on 15m, and it will work on 17 and 20m. It's a big antenna, but is quite easy to mount on the back of your house with a couple of T&K brackets, and when out of band you'll have to tune it with an ATU. You could go down the Cobweb route, and it will work very well on all the above bands, even outdoing the 827 on most bands, it would take a yagi type antenna to better the Cobweb.

If you want to work 40 and 80m then a vertical may be your only solution, but you will have to put some effort into a decent ground network to stand a chance of any serious DX, if it's inter G you want then you really need to be looking at a loop or doublet antenna, but these will need some height if you want good performance.

Hope the above is of some help to you, just remember this, if someone is promising 'all band' performance, then the last thing it will do is perform ;)
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by mangina » 16 Mar 2011, 17:18

how big is your garden ?
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by Mabinogion » 16 Mar 2011, 17:58

You could try the Diamond CP6 multiband vertical, covers 6,10,15,20,40m and the CW end of 80m, handles a maximum 200w pep and about 16ft total length- height wise. The antenna has an individual screw in radial for each band so 6 in total which can be adjusted in 360 or 180 degree formation to suit mounting. Footprint is about 9ft across if fitting all radials in 360 degree formation. As it has radials, you do not need ground counterpoises like you would for the majority of most verticals.

I perhaps, would look for one secondhand as I think they are a bit expensive new for what I consider they are. It is a compromise but would at least get you on the air on a variety of bands.

I have also been advised about the Sirio 827 but I specifically had 10m operation as the prime objective.

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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by forager » 16 Mar 2011, 18:13

:D I was in the same position as yourself. I was going to go down the vertical route, but as Stephen pointed out, you buy only half of the antenna. You spend the rest of money and time on a decent ground system. I finally settled on a cobwebb, it has a low footprint being only 8ft square and mounted in free space is a good option. I spoke to Steve Webb recently, he has mounted one in his loft!! This may be not the best option but could be useful for stealth! The cobwebb is resonant on 5 bands so no tuner is needed. The SRC antennas will work, but the effectiveness will come into question without a ground system. . I can't comment on this because i have never used them but i have a friend who raves about them even though he hasn't any radials! As mentioned the 827 will tune down to 20m with an atu, but again the effectiveness may come into question! For the lower bands i'm using a off centre fed dipole which is resonant on 40 and 80, it isn't installed yet but can be configured in any way to suit your location!. . . Hope that gives some food for thought . .
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by mangina » 16 Mar 2011, 19:20

northern35s wrote:
You say you have a small garden, so an extensive ground network is out of the question, this pretty much rules out a ground mounted vertical
not really. theres no major advantage to having radials longer than the actual vert antenna when laying in or on the ground as there not going to be res anyway. lots of small radials will work ok as long as there not tiny.. if he can get say 16 foot radials out around a 16-20 foot antenna that gnd would be fine ..

in fact laying radials in one quadrant at the base of a vert can actually help "null" out to a degree all other 3 quadrant segments without any radial layed so giving some degree of directability ( not gain ) especially over poor ground ..
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by Atomic » 16 Mar 2011, 19:51

Some interesting things here for sure .... at the moment i have up 2 verticals , one tri-band co linear for 6,2,70cm and a thunderpole mk5 which works fine on 10,11,12,15,17 , I was using a carolina windom 80 special which was located out in the trees at the back of the house and guess what happened the council chopped it down today and i thought do i really want to put up another wire antenna if there going to come round every year and trim/cut trees down , i mean ive stayed here for 22 years plus and i ohnestly can't remember the last time they tidyed up the back of the houses here , and boom out of the blue they decide to do it today wrecking my antenna ok i can probably fix it easy enough as the balluns are fine , it would just be a matter of cutting 2 lengths of copper wire to the right length and it will be in working order again but how long would it last up there before the men with the chainsaws come back ??

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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by porky.69 » 16 Mar 2011, 22:15

[quote="Atomic", I was using a carolina windom 80 special which was located out in the trees at the back of the house and guess what happened the council chopped it down today and i thought do i really want to put up another wire antenna if there going to come round every year and trim/cut trees down , i mean ive stayed here for 22 years plus and i ohnestly can't remember the last time they tidyed up the back of the houses here , OH NO !!!!! :o :o i would have gone mad
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by Bravomike » 17 Mar 2011, 01:15

Has anyone here used a Titan DX and if yes what do you think of it?

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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by northern35s » 17 Mar 2011, 10:34

For there to be 0dB loss in your ground radial system, for a 0.25WL ground mounted antenna, you would need 120 0.4WL equally spaced wire radials, the less and shorter they are the more the loss, that said, 16 radials at 0.1WL will only show a loss of -3dB compared to the ideal, the bonus being 52ohm feedpoint impedance ;)
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Atomic
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by Atomic » 17 Mar 2011, 10:54

Thanks for the replys , ok heres another dilema i have to buy the Sirio 827 or the Sigma Manatova Turbo both antennas bost very good results from reviews and word of mouth but what are they like in high winds ?? That would be my only concern as i stay in quite an open valley where wind speeds can gust up to as high as 100mph in the winter and to be fair 100 sheets for an antenna that might last only one winter is alot of pennies to part with , anyone had any experiences with any of thease antennas ?

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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by 26TM5890 » 17 Mar 2011, 12:34

Atomic wrote:at the moment i have up 2 verticals , one tri-band co linear for 6,2,70cm and a thunderpole mk5 which works fine on 10,11,12,15,17 ,
i have the same problem, no space for an antenna farm :? so it must be a short vertical.

do you use that thunderpole mk5 without an antenna tuner on those bands?


many thanks,
bt
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by mangina » 17 Mar 2011, 12:50

northern35s wrote:For there to be 0dB loss in your ground radial system, for a 0.25WL ground mounted antenna, you would need 120 0.4WL equally spaced wire radials, the less and shorter they are the more the loss, that said, 16 radials at 0.1WL will only show a loss of -3dB compared to the ideal, the bonus being 52ohm feedpoint impedance ;)
i dont think the Q was re a quarter wave .

on a multibander , if they are on /in the ground they won't be tuned. The idea is lowering the gnd resistance .. 4 radials is better than none and 10 is better than 4 etc, its a simple exercise of laying as many as you can.. chicken wire and allsorts is used as you probably know all in an attempt to lower this resistance.


if said 1/4 wave antenna was sat on a tin roof it wouldnt need radials so the actaul radial is just a means of reducing the ground resistance, the more the better to an extent

a statement like yours just adds to any confusion someone may have .. who do you know with 120 radials around any vert let alone 120 quarter wave tuned radials round a 1/4 wave antenna?
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Atomic
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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by Atomic » 17 Mar 2011, 13:01

@bitman , no mate thats with the atu in the ts2000 it will tune the mk5 thunderpole easy enough , but im looking into getting either the Sirio 827 or Sigma Mantova Turbo which ive seen tune as low as 40 with some guys getting good reports ok might not be super duper repoprts compared to say a mono band vertical dedicated for 20 or 40 but none the less still has good ears and TX from what ive heard , im just wondering how they cope with strong winds , will it still be up there after the winter lol

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Re: HF Vertical Antenna Advise !

Post by NToombes » 17 Mar 2011, 13:09

Regards
Neil
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