10/11 Crossband

A place to discuss the amateur radio licence, training and examination.
User avatar
Admiral
Legend
Legend
Posts: 9942
Joined: 08 Mar 2011, 21:20
Call Sign: 26TM157
Location: MK-UK

10/11 Crossband

Post by Admiral » 28 Oct 2015, 00:03

Okay, posted here as it's a legality question and there are plenty of section 2, paragraph B, subsection 1C people here.

Does it contravene the UK amateur licence conditions to TX on 10 and RX on 11 simultaneously?

The 10m TX would be licenced, and the 11m TX would be legal under CEPT, but what about the two together?

No reasons offered, just a question. This is not a wind-up thread, I have a piece of paper (actually a PDF) that says I can do stuff, but never really read it.

Cheers for any replies.
Winner of the 2017 IBTL 'Summer Sizzler' competition

Mattylad
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 1516
Joined: 03 May 2014, 20:09
Call Sign: RDX64
Location: Lancashire

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by Mattylad » 28 Oct 2015, 07:49

The TX frequency is licensed, the RX frequency does not need one.

Can't see a problem myself.

User avatar
andymuza
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 2069
Joined: 05 Oct 2014, 22:19

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by andymuza » 28 Oct 2015, 08:14

If you are communicating with someone on 11m, which I assume you would be then yes it would be illegal as you are only allowed to communicate with other licensed radio hams and if they are a licensed radio ham then they would be contravening their licence terms and conditions transmitting on a none amateur band.

11 Messages
11(1) The Licensee shall be permitted to use the Radio Equipment to discuss any topics of
mutual interest with other Amateurs, and to seek to receive and impart any information and
any ideas6.

and

9(6) The Licensee may receive Messages from an overseas amateur or from a UK Amateur
duly authorised by Ofcom on a frequency band not specified in Schedule 1 but the Licensee
may only transmit on a band specified in Schedule 1 which is authorised under Clause 9(2).

So as 11m isn't an amateur band any where then to cross band 10/11m would be in contravention of the terms and conditions.

Thats my take on it but I am sure some one will argue about if it is right or not.
I will not be commanded, I will not be controlled.
n+1 the formula for working out how many radios you need with n being the current amount.

GeeFull
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 1206
Joined: 28 Mar 2014, 12:27

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by GeeFull » 28 Oct 2015, 08:21

I doubt it is legal in many respects, your amateur licence allows you under your allocated amateur callsign, or under someone elses you are visiting, to transmit and receive messages from "other licenced amateurs", be that simplex or cross band, but applies strictly to contact transmissions and reception within amateur bands.
Exceptions are made within those bands, for example a station in country A has no 4 metre allocation for TX, but does have 6 metre RX/TX privillages, you here where we have access to 4 metres, could work him 6/4 cross band, with he transmitting on 6 metres, and yourself transmitting on 4 metres.
It doesn't allow cross band operation with none amateur spectrum!
And the other station must be a licenced amateur.
Lets say the station you were working on cross band 10/11 metres was not an amateur licence operator, call him UK99, you would be using an amateur frequency, to converse with a none amateur frequency, and to boot an unlicenced station, doubly in contravention of your terms and conditions.
I guess a grey area would be if the person on 11 metres was also amateur licenced, and giving a callsign, but then he would by virtue of the crossband link be conversing with an amateur under an amateur callsign, on a none amateur band, and thus might also be frowned upon.
Best people to ask is Ofcom in an e-mail, I suspect the first example, cross band to none amateur/band would get an instant "NO!", the second example cross band to amateur on none amateur frequency I have no real idea, not a suggestion I have heard before, but I strongly suspect it also would get a "NO!", but only they could clarify that.

User avatar
Admiral
Legend
Legend
Posts: 9942
Joined: 08 Mar 2011, 21:20
Call Sign: 26TM157
Location: MK-UK

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by Admiral » 28 Oct 2015, 09:32

Thanks for taking the time to reply, it's much appreciated.

This isn't hypothetical by the way.

The 11m station isn't unlicensed, they are licence free, and the station is 100% legal under CEPT R&R, for the purposes of this particular instance, as it happens, the 11m operator does not hold a ticket, if they did then this particular scenario would indeed be hypothetical.

I'm curious, I've often heard (usually older) hams sign off with his/her contact and at the end he/she wishes 73 to 'all the SWLs' that are monitoring, although slightly off topic from my question, does that contravene the licence as you are addressing non licensed people, albeit persons unknown and not necessarily actual persons?
Winner of the 2017 IBTL 'Summer Sizzler' competition

User avatar
andymuza
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 2069
Joined: 05 Oct 2014, 22:19

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by andymuza » 28 Oct 2015, 10:20

Admiral wrote:I'm curious, I've often heard (usually older) hams sign off with his/her contact and at the end he/she wishes 73 to 'all the SWLs' that are monitoring, although slightly off topic from my question, does that contravene the licence as you are addressing non licensed people, albeit persons unknown and not necessarily actual persons?
If you were pedantic and went by the letter of the Terms and Conditions under section 11 Messages then yes it could be seen as being in contravention however, as this is more a greetings style message and you are not actually trying to have a conversation with the said SWL's then I would say no.

It's one of many gray areas that could be taken either way in my opinion but is generally accepted.
I will not be commanded, I will not be controlled.
n+1 the formula for working out how many radios you need with n being the current amount.

GeeFull
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 1206
Joined: 28 Mar 2014, 12:27

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by GeeFull » 28 Oct 2015, 11:21

andymuza wrote:
Admiral wrote:I'm curious, I've often heard (usually older) hams sign off with his/her contact and at the end he/she wishes 73 to 'all the SWLs' that are monitoring, although slightly off topic from my question, does that contravene the licence as you are addressing non licensed people, albeit persons unknown and not necessarily actual persons?
If you were pedantic and went by the letter of the Terms and Conditions under section 11 Messages then yes it could be seen as being in contravention however, as this is more a greetings style message and you are not actually trying to have a conversation with the said SWL's then I would say no.

It's one of many gray areas that could be taken either way in my opinion but is generally accepted.
It doesn't contravene generaly because the amateur bands are one of the aspects of SWL'ing that is actualy technicaly "legal" to listen to, along with broadcast stations etc., there is stuff, despite the fact most ignore it, that technicaly is not!
However at a "pedantic" level, amateurs are not supposed to make general untargeted "announcements/broadcasts", other that CQ calls, or station tests.
All other transmissions should be targeted at a specific "amateur" recipient.
One exception to that these days might be 60 metres, or other "shared bands", where it is actualy acceptable to converse with a "prime user", who requests an exchange of dialogue I believe?
However a general sign off or sign on "welcome or goodbye" to SWL's, has been accepted custom and practice for many decades.
And you are not directly addressing an individual who may respond in the form of a transmission, merely saying 73 to anyone listening, a general non specific target, bestwishes.
It could equaly apply to any amateurs who "happen" to be listening.
Its when it comes into the realms of actual "two way traffic" it all gets heavily frowned upon, where unlicenced stations, or none amateur bands being used are concerned.
The rules are quite specific, despite the oft claims of they can be interpreted "this way and that", I still say a quick word with Ofcom, on the subject raised, would receive the answer "NO!", in short sharp shrift! ;)
Last edited by GeeFull on 28 Oct 2015, 11:32, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
andymuza
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 2069
Joined: 05 Oct 2014, 22:19

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by andymuza » 28 Oct 2015, 11:28

As I said, if you were being pedantic.

General messages are not allowed unless calling CQ or you are on a net.

So technically it is in contravention.

11(4) The Licensee shall not send Messages (whether directly or for onwards transmission by
another station) for general reception other than:
(a) initial calls; or
(b) to groups or networks (“nets”) of three or more Amateurs as long as communication
is first established separately with at least one Amateur in any such group;
(c) Messages transmitted via a mailbox or bulletin board for reception by Amateurs.
I will not be commanded, I will not be controlled.
n+1 the formula for working out how many radios you need with n being the current amount.

User avatar
kr0ne
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4536
Joined: 25 Sep 2011, 18:33

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by kr0ne » 28 Oct 2015, 12:34

You wouldn't argue that driving at 25-30mph in a 20 zone was 'technically' against the rules if you were being pedantic though... Despite the fact that the practice has been generally practiced for years and the police choose not to enforce the rule for the most part.

If the question is about legality and the licence T&Cs then there really is only the letter of the law to consider. You may wish to apply the spirit of the law, but until it has been tested in court it really has no bearing on the question of compliance.

Without reading the T&Cs, I'd be tempted to say that this might be permitted if you ident as required and do not use the amateur channel to send messages back to the 11m user. It's the sort of thing you really need to re-read the entire T&Cs with the specific question in mind for though and, like you Admiral, I can't really be hooped! :P

User avatar
RadioPixie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 1948
Joined: 08 May 2011, 17:53
Call Sign: 26TM552
Location: Peoples Republic of Cornwall

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by RadioPixie » 28 Oct 2015, 17:53

Admiral wrote:Thanks for taking the time to reply, it's much appreciated.

This isn't hypothetical by the way.

The 11m station isn't unlicensed, they are licence free, and the station is 100% legal under CEPT R&R, for the purposes of this particular instance, as it happens, the 11m operator does not hold a ticket, if they did then this particular scenario would indeed be hypothetical.

I'm curious, I've often heard (usually older) hams sign off with his/her contact and at the end he/she wishes 73 to 'all the SWLs' that are monitoring, although slightly off topic from my question, does that contravene the licence as you are addressing non licensed people, albeit persons unknown and not necessarily actual persons?
CB/11m station is license-exempt not license-free. I think, but don't quote me, that the Secretary of State is the license holder.

I agree with GF's interpretation.
73 from Dave the Pixie - G7OPC - 26CT052 - CB & Ham Radioaficionado

User avatar
Transwarp
Radio Addict
Radio Addict
Posts: 820
Joined: 03 May 2014, 20:15
Call Sign: Viper
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by Transwarp » 31 Oct 2015, 14:24

Talk ham on ham bands, and CB (or FreeB) on CB.

Keep em' separate, keep it simple imo.
"Did video really kill the radio star?"

User avatar
StormShadow
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 1026
Joined: 07 Oct 2013, 11:38
Location: Recently moved to South Bucks

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by StormShadow » 01 Nov 2015, 01:39

I'm sure Ofcum will have something to say about it though, CB and Ham are two different things, I mean you could do whatever the f**k you like on CB and they wont batter an eyelid but as soon as its crossed with a ham band oh no.... Its a bloody mess...

Freeband CB and an Amateur radio band? wheres the problem? CB is a free band for everybody isn't it, no license required? so why ain't hams allowed on the CB band... oh because it violates the terms and conditions of the Ham license.... wheres your logic ofcum? seriously it does no harm, nobody is causing any interference so I'd love to know why hams can't use CB frequencies?
Mattylad wrote:The TX frequency is licensed, the RX frequency does not need one.

Can't see a problem myself.

User avatar
StormShadow
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 1026
Joined: 07 Oct 2013, 11:38
Location: Recently moved to South Bucks

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by StormShadow » 01 Nov 2015, 02:02

Edit sorry typo I meant "Ofcom" I do apologize typo lol

User avatar
Admiral
Legend
Legend
Posts: 9942
Joined: 08 Mar 2011, 21:20
Call Sign: 26TM157
Location: MK-UK

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by Admiral » 01 Nov 2015, 10:15

The object of the exercise isn't to do 'what the f*ck we like', as said, the 11m will be 100% legal, and the 10m also, but can you mix them legally?

Clearly the 11m side isn't so much of a problem, that's why the question was asked in the ham bit.
Winner of the 2017 IBTL 'Summer Sizzler' competition

User avatar
kr0ne
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4536
Joined: 25 Sep 2011, 18:33

Re: 10/11 Crossband

Post by kr0ne » 01 Nov 2015, 10:40

Are you talking about re-transmitting what your 11m station is receiving on 10m?

I don't think this is a problem in itself but I believe the ID clause says something like 'the station must be clearly identifiable at all times', so it may become a problem if it appeared to others that the received 11m station was actually transmitting from your 10m station. As long as you worked around that though........

If you just meant monitoring 11m while separately using 10m then this entire thread is hilarious! :lol:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests