Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

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radio_ryan
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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by radio_ryan » 20 Jun 2011, 13:57

that why it good to have one, we need to imford and advoice other that 446 ch 8 is safety and calling.

i know that i can get a nice way on 446 with the help on a PRM 446 antener on the roof

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by AJC4646 » 18 Oct 2011, 10:05

I work in the woodlands quite frequently, most of the time mobile signal is strong and is logged down in the risk assessment. We do use a combination of comms in the woods, dependent on range of working apart. When the forwarder driver is tracking up to 3-4 miles away through dense woodland we use the 449 UK Simple, but this will not link to the Emergency Services, nor will PMR446. To me the use of Ham repeaters is pure common sense, they are inactive for 99% of the day (certainly in my area) and surely Ham ops will have no objection to real emergencies being handled in this way, and it would raise their profile to a wider public audience, Raynet could even coordinate ops. Personally, as a business, I would have no issues with paying a yearly sub to the local repeater group that I am most likely to use in this event ie GB3EZ on 70cms. In this age of technology, that can be the one thing that lets you down in an emergency situation, no bloomin phone signal. If licensing is such a big issue, then allocate an emergency prefix that can be stuck/written on the radio to be transmitted in emergencies.
As many of you may be aware, chainsaw injuries involve a major trauma situation, and I would hate to leave a colleague in such a situation to go and seek help because of a few government types dictating who I can get assistance from. Lets get on it.

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by overlandadventures » 19 Oct 2011, 21:12

With all this talk of what's legal and what's not, I'm pretty sure that according to international law (I think it was an international radio treaty signed in Nirobi in the early 1990's) that say's in a life threatening emergency you are free to use ANY radio transmitter available to you. I think it was the signing of that treaty that basically "legalised" epirbs.
If you use any transmitter in a genuine emergency I don't think anyone will really bother to throw you in court, imagine the headlines "accident victim arrested for calling for help" I know I would take my chances, the american's have a saying about self defence which is strangley applicable in the radio rescue scenario;
"it is better to be judged by twelve men than carried by six"
hth
John

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by RogerD » 19 Oct 2011, 23:24

overlandadventures wrote:the american's have a saying ;
"it is better to be judged by twelve men than carried by six"
Seeing as America still has the death penalty, in some matters you may just be delaying the inevitable :lol:

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by radiosification » 19 Oct 2011, 23:40

RogerD wrote:
overlandadventures wrote:the american's have a saying ;
"it is better to be judged by twelve men than carried by six"
Seeing as America still has the death penalty, in some matters you may just be delaying the inevitable :lol:
We're talking about america here not china. (I say that because I remember a case where they gave a tourist the death sentence for having a small amount of drugs on him in china)
You won't even need to worry about even jail time for going on a repeater you're not meant to be on in a life threatening situation.
If you're interested in digital voice, check out my YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/radiosification

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by overlandadventures » 20 Oct 2011, 08:03

After a quick google I found the Nairobi treaty was actually signed in 1982. and is available in fullhttp://www.itu.int/osg/csd/wtpf/wtpf200 ... TRs_88.pdf
the bit relavent to this topic is:
5.1 Safety of life telecommunications, such as distress telecommuni-cations, shall be entitled to transmission as of right and shall, where technically practicable, have absolute priority over all other
thats on page 15.
so if you do call for help on a radio your not licenced to use you should be able to use that international law as a defence.
cheers
John

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by vzh7gk » 28 Oct 2011, 14:27

Admiral wrote:In an emergency one tends to shout on every frequency available.
Unfortunately, the 500kHz transmitters I used to work with are a trifle heavy to cart up hills! :lol:

But I do agree with the sentiment :)

73
Graham G4FUJ

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by Minus1 » 01 Nov 2011, 08:33

Australia and New Zealand are way ahead of us on this, 80 channels, including repeaters, and two dedicated emergency channels — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHF_CB
Fat chance of that happening here!

If this use of channel 8 is to be widely known and adopted, we should get Mountain Rescue Teams to support and promote it.
KEY : = channel/stud | ~ = CTCSS/DCS | ^ = transmitter site | ¯ = overhead | * = trunked

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by radio_ryan » 01 Nov 2011, 10:50

Minus1 wrote:
If this use of channel 8 is to be widely known and adopted, we should get Mountain Rescue Teams to support and promote it.
it is use in part of the UK by the MRT.

even the US have more safety coms and we do. or do we and we have not been told.

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by shortymcsteve » 04 Nov 2011, 02:57

AJC4646 wrote:I work in the woodlands quite frequently, most of the time mobile signal is strong and is logged down in the risk assessment. We do use a combination of comms in the woods, dependent on range of working apart. When the forwarder driver is tracking up to 3-4 miles away through dense woodland we use the 449 UK Simple, but this will not link to the Emergency Services, nor will PMR446. To me the use of Ham repeaters is pure common sense, they are inactive for 99% of the day (certainly in my area) and surely Ham ops will have no objection to real emergencies being handled in this way, and it would raise their profile to a wider public audience, Raynet could even coordinate ops. Personally, as a business, I would have no issues with paying a yearly sub to the local repeater group that I am most likely to use in this event ie GB3EZ on 70cms. In this age of technology, that can be the one thing that lets you down in an emergency situation, no bloomin phone signal. If licensing is such a big issue, then allocate an emergency prefix that can be stuck/written on the radio to be transmitted in emergencies.
As many of you may be aware, chainsaw injuries involve a major trauma situation, and I would hate to leave a colleague in such a situation to go and seek help because of a few government types dictating who I can get assistance from. Lets get on it.

It's a good idea but what are you going to do when you have a bunch of hams chatting away and you have an emergency? They would just talk over the top of you until you eventually manager to break through.. and that is vital time for a trauma victim. The best thing to have is a satellite phone in the outdoors i think, especailly in remote areas.

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by alannah » 04 Nov 2011, 06:41

shortymcsteve wrote:
AJC4646 wrote:I work in the woodlands quite frequently, most of the time mobile signal is strong and is logged down in the risk assessment. We do use a combination of comms in the woods, dependent on range of working apart. When the forwarder driver is tracking up to 3-4 miles away through dense woodland we use the 449 UK Simple, but this will not link to the Emergency Services, nor will PMR446. To me the use of Ham repeaters is pure common sense, they are inactive for 99% of the day (certainly in my area) and surely Ham ops will have no objection to real emergencies being handled in this way, and it would raise their profile to a wider public audience, Raynet could even coordinate ops. Personally, as a business, I would have no issues with paying a yearly sub to the local repeater group that I am most likely to use in this event ie GB3EZ on 70cms. In this age of technology, that can be the one thing that lets you down in an emergency situation, no bloomin phone signal. If licensing is such a big issue, then allocate an emergency prefix that can be stuck/written on the radio to be transmitted in emergencies.
As many of you may be aware, chainsaw injuries involve a major trauma situation, and I would hate to leave a colleague in such a situation to go and seek help because of a few government types dictating who I can get assistance from. Lets get on it.

It's a good idea but what are you going to do when you have a bunch of hams chatting away and you have an emergency? They would just talk over the top of you until you eventually manager to break through.. and that is vital time for a trauma victim. The best thing to have is a satellite phone in the outdoors i think, especailly in remote areas.
A satellite phone would a better option rather than relying on the local ham repeater. My experience of ham radio operators is that they would be willing to assist you in an emergency but even just by talking to you they would be breaking the conditions of their license and so they may need some convincing that an emergency call for help was genuine and the risk of losing their license was worth the effort.

This potential delay could prove fatal, why not investigate the posibility of their being a commercial repeater nearby and get the necessary allocation and license from OFCOM and use that instead. You would require someone remote also able to work through the repeater sat near a reliable phone link but at least then you remove any uncertainty from the situation.

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by Minus1 » 04 Nov 2011, 08:58

This talk of satellite phones is totally detached from reality. :roll:

The vast majority of hillwalkers are not able or willing to pay the enormous cost for occasional use. 446 MHz walkie talkies are cheap and thus far more likely to be taken up. It's just a matter of publicity.
KEY : = channel/stud | ~ = CTCSS/DCS | ^ = transmitter site | ¯ = overhead | * = trunked

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by radio_ryan » 04 Nov 2011, 11:19

I know i would be willing to listen on 446 ch 8 for safety calls. but the pronleam would be hearing them over other users.

around here at night they are used has baby coms, you can hear stuff from the parents talking that they would not wont the street knowing. :lol:

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by alannah » 04 Nov 2011, 11:40

Minus1 wrote:This talk of satellite phones is totally detached from reality. :roll:

The vast majority of hillwalkers are not able or willing to pay the enormous cost for occasional use. 446 MHz walkie talkies are cheap and thus far more likely to be taken up. It's just a matter of publicity.
I agree with you but to be fair to shortymcsteve who originally suggested the satellite phone idea, it was was for persons at work engaged in the use of chainsaws. Employers have a legal obligation to provide reliable contact with external services and in those circumstances a satellite phone is a viable option.

I think the word is spreading quite fast regarding the use of a hill walking safety channel on 446 chanel 8,

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Re: Hill walking network Safety Channel 8 PRM

Post by pterodaktyl » 04 Nov 2011, 14:15

alannah wrote:A satellite phone would a better option rather than relying on the local ham repeater. My experience of ham radio operators is that they would be willing to assist you in an emergency but even just by talking to you they would be breaking the conditions of their license and so they may need some convincing that an emergency call for help was genuine and the risk of losing their license was worth the effort.
I don't think I'd hesitate to help out if someone reported a life-threatening emergency on the local repeater. In the unlikely event that Ofcom did decide to pursue the matter I would expect the same defence which protects someone calling for help on an unlicensed frequency if life is at risk to cover the person who responds to that call as well, even in the event that the call later turns out not to be genuine. In the event that it didn't, well I'd rather risk my ham licence than read about a body being found on the moors and realise that it was the person who's call for help I ignored two days previously.

The only way I can see where there is a slight risk of landing in hot water is if you respond to a hoax call on the repeater and pass the details onto the emergency services, who respond and find nothing. They could then potentially decide that you were the source of the hoax, but since you would most likely be in simultaneous comms with the 999 operator and the person on the radio that seems pretty unlikely as well.

All that said - if you want to carry a ham radio as a piece of safety kit, and bearing in mind all the previous comments regarding the limitations of this, go take a weekend course and get your Foundation licence. It's not difficult, it's not expensive, and it will mean that in an emergency you'll already be familiar with the usage of the radio. Repeaters take a bit of getting used to (getting the CTCSS tone/shift right, waiting for the pips between overs etc.) and none of that is stuff you want to be trying to figure out half way up a mountain with a broken leg or worse. Also bear in mind that just because you can HEAR a repeater doesn't mean you'll be able to open it, much less carry out an intelligible conversation. If you have a licence you can check in on the repeater from time to time to make sure other users can hear you, rather than finding out too late that you're in an area of marginal coverage and can't break the repeater's squelch.

Tom

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