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Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 13 Apr 2017, 18:58
by original45
If this is in wrong section please accept my apologies.
I've been looking at counterpois wires and would like to attempt to try one on my eurosonic es 200 handheld cb radio.

I'm a little confused as to the length of wire needid though.

I'm using a 21" longer bnc antenna at present but I'm really struggling to find out the length of wire needid for the counterpois wire to match antenna length.
Would someone please point me in the right direction.
Thank you.

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 13 Apr 2017, 20:45
by Admiral
In theory I guess you're looking at multiples of ¼ waves, so I guess your minimum would be 167 inches,

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 16 Apr 2017, 16:43
by original45
167" , well I hardly going to be able to hang that of the bottom of the handheld then.
I've seen one work well on a 2 m baofeng handheld at 19-20" with good effect.
I just thought use give it a try but looks like it's UN feasible then.

Thanks for the response in any case Admiral

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 16 Apr 2017, 18:42
by paulears
2m is a lot shorter than 11m - so it's feasible, but just a bit impractical. Would work fine in a ballon though?

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 17 Apr 2017, 08:22
by Admiral
I absolutely don't know, I've never heard of anyone using a counterpoise on an 11m handie before, but just because it's not the norm then don't discount it, that's what sets us radio types slightly different to the crowd because we do stuff. 12 runs of 167 inches is messy, but have a go with 20 inch runs, experiment a bit, what's the worst that can happen?

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 17 Apr 2017, 10:28
by G0EHU
Since when has a 1/4λ on 27Mhz been 167 inches?

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 17 Apr 2017, 14:44
by Admiral
G0EHU wrote:Since when has a 1/4λ on 27Mhz been 167 inches?
Here we go, don't bitch at my lack of knowledge Einstein, offer some positives and tell the OP the correct measurements instead of being a smart-arsed bully. 107 inches or whatever, not all of us are great at using a keyboard, focus on positive stuff and leave the trolling to others.

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 17 Apr 2017, 17:58
by stanogs68
Admiral wrote:
G0EHU wrote:Since when has a 1/4λ on 27Mhz been 167 inches?
Here we go, don't bitch at my lack of knowledge Einstein, offer some positives and tell the OP the correct measurements instead of being a smart-arsed bully. 107 inches or whatever, not all of us are great at using a keyboard, focus on positive stuff and leave the trolling to others.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 28 Apr 2017, 19:28
by original45
Ok second thought . How would this work , I cut my length of wire 107" pluss a little.
I coil it very carefully around a let's say 10 mm dia by 21" length of something none conductive .
Now me being thick it could be that trying to coil 9ft of wire around 10 mm dia over 21" length may not fit so if in this case it doesn't fit or I can't do it without a few coils touching could I insulate the pree wound coils with tape and wind the rest over the top and back along the length.

Would this be ok to do or would it cause some kind of problem winding back over top once insulated.

The only other way I thought and I believe was mentioned above is to
Run a 9 ft length of shielded wire folded back against the others in to 5 lengths of 21.4 " keeping it in one continuous piece length.

I'm no antenna guru so please don't shoot me down
But I'd appreciate your thoughts from those who know antennas .
Thanks

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 28 Apr 2017, 20:44
by paulears
I suspect it would be pointless, because if you have a quarter wave, pulled out the maths is simple, and all you have is a resonant related to one variable - frequency. If your radio antenna was also the same length, and your aerial went up and the dangly wire down - assuming in free space, so you'd be at the top of a ladder. This would be the most efficient your half wave dipole could be. Shorten the ¼ wave to give a more manageable aerial length, and efficiency drops, with the counterpoise stretched out. As soon as you start to coil the counterpoise to make it easier to manage, then even if you get the calculations right with the new formula that takes the inductive and captive components into account, it will be far less efficient at it's job as it's smaller. To do the maths you need to be able to work out the inductance you have designed in with the coil. This will involve the wire gauge, the tightness of the coil, the number of turns and your construction will be less than perfect which will give you a +/- figure to cope with. If you work on the assumption that making a dipole balance is going to be tricky, then you're back to the imperfect lump of salty water our bodies actually are as the 'lump' of ground, with the vertical poking out the top.

Before I knew any better, I had a walkie talkie, imported from Germany - which I discovered was a CB radio (1978) and I wrapped a bit of wire around the collapsed telescopic, and just dangled it out the car window - it worked a bit. Most hand-helds are designed to be able to work into rubbish VSWR loads. Adding a counterpoise to an already inefficient aerial I don't think actually does much good. If you then shorten it, is it really worth it when you end up with a really awkward thing to operate.

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 28 Apr 2017, 21:00
by original45
Thank you for taking the time to explain .
I just found something simular on the net how their designed tighter coils towards the top even touching coils so on.

No it's much too complex and above me to make one .

Their endeth the idea .

Your input is much appreciated .
Thank you again.

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 21 Jun 2017, 20:26
by rpcomms
Hello
Ive tried this with a piece of 2.75metre long flexible wire, a Yellow crimp ring terminal that slips over TNC antenna connector of my Randy 2 cb HT.
When antenna screws down onto ring terminal you get a good earth connection.
On stock supplied centre loaded TNC helical antenna I get a much better VSWR figure of less than 2:0 or better on band edges
At 27.200Mhz less than 1:5:1
I found get a consistently good 3 extra S Points (+18dB based on 6dB per s point unit for the Einstein's) out and incoming signals.
Just trail the counterpoise wire out on ground,its not fussy and work great every time.
Easy to spool up and clip onto my radios leather case,job done,it works.

Regards
Rob 73's

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 22 Jun 2017, 22:35
by original45
That's great nice one. I didn't continue with it as I got side tracked but I will have a go.
Will keep eyes open for a suitable wire now.
Seems a good beneficial improvement too and a easy quick deploy too.

Re: Pigtails, counterpois wire for handheld cb

Posted: 12 Jan 2018, 20:19
by canuck777
102 " - A quarter wave length long is the correct length to use as a counterpoise on 27mhz. it has done me fine for years. 167" in NOT the correct length. p