Amateur radio for cb

[108EH002]

Hf set's seem to work fine on 26.965-27.991.25 especially on Ssb,the 480 Sat I used to own was better than any Cybernet/Uniden I have used on CB that's for sure,but I prefer Ssb

[rpcomms]

Ive tended to find the following issues that have come into my workshop

old HF rigs set up on wide 5khz 15khz bandwidth filters-CB is narrow 2.5khz max 6-9khz B\W (North America does not recognise narrow FM ie euro spec 2-2.5khz,they class NFM as 5Khz dev max.
I have fighted with local cbers on this one to either switch radio down to Narrow FM for compatibility (2.5khz) or get your radio modded.
Most shrug their shoulders and carry on claiming people sound low to them,or wide banded deviation splattering on channels 18 and 20 FM
and worse asking proper cbers on proper cb sets to turn they Deviation up! Crazy
Its a complete mess in my local area because of this,normal cb radios now suffer with squelch chopping and distorted fm coming from these Noobs who wont listen to common sense and good techs.
On balance some do if they know how to drive the menu system on radio settings and actually switch it to Narrow FM mode,and wow sound perfect surprise and all issue (well nearly all issue)disappear.

Some HF Radio cheat the customer! Some users don't realize on some HF radios they only switch the TX side on FM deviation,not the RX side filters and discriminator\audio preamp to switch audio gain when switching w|Narrow FM mode,some YAesu sets and some Kenwoods do this,most don't notice but it can give lower audio out from transceiver when receiving a proper cb set on Narrow FM.
The Customer complaint-every one sound low on RX apart from Fred blogs up road on his HF rig (running wide fm ),IT MUST be everyone else's radios are wrong,Ive got A HAM radio rig it cant be wrong its better than a cb,WRONG,WRONG.

Even I at first thought whats going on here,but after digging round found in early HF sets most did TX side only!
My workshop Yaesu VX-6R does it,cheated
USA Markets does not recognize Euro Narrow FM generally,just look in service manual all set up on 4-5khz max,including RCI2950,70,USA SS3900,Some Uniden's HR series.
So cb radios all narrow fm (2khz)here in UK and Euro Land that's the ETSI-CEPT spec,USA wont recognize it just check all the ARRL sites they are trying to boycott it.
This confusion has also happen on VHF 2m band user not understanding so nothing new here.
Other problem NFM (we UK,EU call it WFM not to be confused with broadcast FM)is often referred Technically in USA as 5khz max,UK and EU land NFM is referred to as 2-.2.5khz and that has caused a lot of confusion in the radio world
Most of the newer HF rig now do switch both Side,so make sure set to Narrow B\W if you can just to keep systems compatible on band.

In my area HF rigs on CB band on FM mode has created all sorts of issues on cb ie you sound to loud sending,too I cant hear you too well due to RX set up on wrong B\W,arguments and fallouts,I just stay out of it now and watch the mess unfold
Ive tried to educate and advise but some ,it falls on deaf ears.


AM typically not set up correctly including newish sets just look at the Yaesu FT-991 has Am issue recently,my friend has one and came to me for advice seems there too much carrier set up in alignment mode.
Ive set up quite a few Yaesu,Icoms where the AM mode sounded dreadful,if not usable at all and these were stock radios,why they cant get this right god knows,even your cheap AM rig would sound better.
My own ICom IC-703 had to do a lot of R&D time on radio to get decent clean Am modulation from it,so bear this in mind when buying a HF radio for other uses if AM is preferred mode,some may need adjusting compared to a cb multimode.
Thumb of rule if its a 100W radio,divide it by 4=25w max power the Am carrier should sit at,if its any higher it will distort,lower modulation swing.
If you read RF power ,it should read 100W PEP or there about positive swing set at 25W Carrier,thats a good indication radios good.

Some HF radios the Automatic Noise Limiter (ANL) does not exist or very ineffective compared with some cb's sometimes!
Noise BLankers can be hit and miss depending on brand.

No bandpass filters on RX side compare with cb radio can cause issues on HF rig RX a little noisy or wide,Most cb have a tuned front end.



I think on the whole most modern HF set 2015 onwards are pretty good,but do have a few pit falls you need to know about or least check first,most do now recognise wide and Narrow FM correctly done,just user needs to understand operation compared with a cb radio that's fixed on spec B\Width and DEv.
Most modern SMD built cb radios generally are a whole lot better built and stability than ever before and some do come up to very high standards comparable to commercial equipment.
Their has been issues with some well known cb branded units,but this is down to Factory Politics not field testing enough and ironing out bugs first hand,but that's a global problem nowadays in Manufacturing I have personally come across myself in many Boardroom Engineering meetings (some shouting and hissy fits some people in upper management just don't want to listen and it always bites them on the butt when Engineers have told them so lol)with Electronic companies I have done work for and ending up doing exactly in the end what we wanted them to do,get it right before you ship it out!All fun

On the whole cb radios are getting a lot better built and are finally getting better engineering and quality they deserve and can see why some do like using Ham kit for better parts,build,quality and performance.
Albrecht AE 6110,President RAndy II,CRT One N all high standard for what you are paying for.

One big problem is most will not pay the prices for high end new cb radio kit,it can be done but you got to pay for it if you want same quality as a Icom or Kenwood or commercial grade CB.
You got to dig into pockets and most wont hence why its been a long struggle getting decent cb radio kit onto market that will sell and look and perform as good as a modern commercial VHF set at £350-500.

Technically there no reason why we cant have very high grade, commercial quality cb products that look,feel,perform like Moto,Kenwoods,Vertex Pro end radio its down to the user\buyer that governs the market drive to get these products and pay a fare price and not expect it for £20 or less kind of attitude.
I personally would love to see High end professional grade cb radios so good,hams start buying then to put on 10M\12m band role reversal and some professional user in outdoor pursuits,give the cb band a more pro feel to it,it deserves it and maybe re ignite some extra interest in it uses,it certainly needs it in the UK.
CB still has lot to offer,it does need modernising and maybe a hint to manufacturers in cb industry to step their game up and bring out high performance,well built products similar to High quality HF rigs in multimode formats if there a big demand for this.

Rob

[M1JWR]

As some know on here i have a 10m colt 320fm black shadow, which was professionally converted
many moons ago, i bought it off a G4.
On to the story
About 12 years ago i took it to a local G4 who i knew well, he is now silent key, 10m was wide open that day.
he used a kenwood ts, top of the range, he tested both at various points throughout 10m on rx and the colt beat the kenwood
every time, i kid you not, at one point he switched the colt on with with only a patch lead and a swr meter and it still recieved
signals on 10m including the boston repeater, this wasent a man for expletives but i heard one that day, he also said
"sensitive radio this, just what i always knew, single band radio will beat a multi band radio every time"
he knew it was picking up any rf from anything in his shack, and he had all the gear, baluns, filters and gawd knows what.
what i am trying to say is to use 11m buy a cb, a single band radio designed for that band, the choice is yours

[rpcomms]

Most pre 1995 ish HF radios generally had the 16khz filter installed for wide fm 5 khz Deviation due to the North american market and a lot of HF kit got imported into UK under this spec from past.
These is why some imported SS3900 chassis FM is set to wide 4-5khz not 2.0khz its marketing,most USA are catching onto using the narrow fm mode now and setting them to 2.0khz max for 10 khz spacing system correctly,but a lot of old kit is now incr#orrectly setup for modern day current production cb radios.

From Europe opted for Narrow FM in the 10m bands Plans with provision to switch radios to the older wide fm system due to the fact FCC does not recognize narrow fm (2.5khz dev max) to be used in 10m band plan forcefully,its a provision it can be used.
Hence when you buy a Export 10m \CB often the filters\deviations are set up for FM @5khz typical example Rangers 2950s for USA market.
EU cb uses an even narrower fm system ETSI spec and there is a lot of confusion over this I see in forums on the net.
The current ESTI agreement currently is 2.00khz max deviation for 10 khz step channels,even the UK specs were updated to a lower deviation levels from a CEPT agreement long ago from 2.5khz to 2.0khz max.

Most HF rigs wont even meet that spec because even modern ones are set up based on a 12,5khz channel spacing system ie 2.5khz deviation (audio bandwidth 0.3 to 3 khz) and RX bandwidth of 11.0khz wide
Ill explain here and this formula will work with all fm systems,this is how manufacturers determine the correct deviation and IF stage filters in radios.

CB Spacing 10 khz steps (ESTI spec)

Peak deviation =2.00
max high end transmit audio response limit=2.5khz ESTI cb spec
so 2.00 (dev)+2.5khz (max audio limit)=4.5khz X2 (times it by 2)=9Khz max bandwidth for fm

Ham\Landmobile radio

25khz spacing
max dev 5.0khz
Max tx audio bandwidth 3.0khz
5.0+3.0=8 khz X 2=16khz bandwidth

You will notice on the cb one its 9khz bandwidth for FM modulation system make a mental note for strange things in mfr world,explain in a bit.

Now onto the Filters and Bandpass filters arguments.
Old hF radios did use very high selective passbands and this could have a limited performance spec in the 25-28mhz regions,in practise you could get away with it.
Modern HF equipment is generally has two markets amauteur and commercial,there is a lot of cross over and generally most commercial amateur kit will allow passband filters,frontend,TX stages to cope from 1.6-30 mhz without any issues,the mfr's build it in on purpose for different sales markets and different applications including a lot of government depts\services.
Icom are famous for doing that,alinco is another brand where cross overs happens.
I can confirm on my own test gear my Icom HF does not degrade a ounce from 1-30mhz using high end test gear designed for communications radios purposes,no drop out in 25-28mhz at all,and yes this bands used for commercial HF purposes too NZ 27mhz MArine,29mhz Africa band ( RCI 2950 have some hidden channels built in there),Marine 25-26.5mhz
So generally most 2017 HF radio kit will prob perform as just as good in and out ham bands generally,plus you'll have better stability,tighter Q filtering,robustness if you got deep pockets and don't worry much about legalities.

Older hf kit1995ish or less yes they can be a bit off and some have very selective High "Q"tuned circuits,i will agree on that point to some extent but it all depends on brand and internal electronics,you cant really say all HF sets are bad or good because depending on era and marketing ,a lot of older HF radios were used to be used in UK and abroad embassies many years ago by Yaesu,all ham kit and used on Commercial special freq's didn't stop them using them out of HAm band,so i think we trying to generalise the argument statement.

OK onto the 9 Khz for fm and the 6 khz Bandwidth filter (HT) for Am issue and HAm mods.
Most cb are built to a price market,they are designed as a low cost 2 way radio for general comms by public (US) and as such lots of electronic designers are subjected to compromises due to tight budget constraints and sales marketing placed upon designer of the cb radio.
The specs have improved and tighten up in past few years finally and are slowly coming up on par with Land Mobile Radio specs,don't forget UK isn't the only Market they sell modern cb radios too,they are commercial applications sometimes too in market you never see or hear off.

To the user its a box turn on and use,keep it simple and tech free that's the idea of cb radio in general terms and have a good performance overall in concept.

With this in mind often cb radios get a compromised design in the RX filtering stakes depending on brand and cost.
Often SSB filters on cb are a lot wider and have less crystal poles to reduce cost and make min spec requirements (ESTI 2017 CB)
A compromise of using ,here we go a 6khz filter for Am (that correctly done) and using the same filter on FM !
hang on didn't we say we needed 9khz bandwidth from calculations?
yes that's right to save money they place and use the same 455khz HT filter for Am & FM,now too some may say well that's tighter so its better,NO it makes fm worse!
FM works totally different to AM,wonder why some cb rigs can sound a bit muffled on rx or raggy around audio received esp on weak signals on some sets,well this why esp if the person your receiving is using 2.5khz dev to 5khz deviation!
So what do manufacturers do well easy turn the fm deviation down a tad (current models) so it wont cause an issues!
so here we go
we have 6 khz HT filter in place in ur high tech cb
we know max audio limit is around 2.5khz
so say we set cb dev for about 1.25khz max (i know its low)
1.25khz+2.5khz=3.75khz X 2=7.0khz bandwidth total,well 6 khz is close enough see and prob in practise OK.

Most modern cb radios don't have a separate fm filter of 9 khz and 6Khz for Am if you want a peak deviation of about 2.0khz max or more,its a compromise and in practise can prob get away with it.
So if your going to do ham to cb conversions don't use a 6 khz HT filter use a 9 khz filter for improved performance,I tried this on my icom and audio sounded dull on HT filter to tight,so back to 9 khz D type.

If you don't believe checkout service docs,you can look at schematics and see for yourself the FM demodulator chip is typically a MC3361 and ull see only one filter used for both modulation systems.

On using a HAM HF radio set to Narrow FM (9 khz filter/2.5khz dev max) it will prob sound improved quality esp if cb sets set up on 2-2.5khz deviation levels as often are.

The same with using a HAM HF radio in 27mhz set up on narrow FM (2.5khz) in most cases will work fine.
Some other pointers on these Filter conversion,not only the filter IF 455 khz filter you must change,but also the audio tap of resistor from demod chip has to be lowered due to less noise from tighter filter fitted,its normally from the demod pin,just half value.
Otherwise the fm squelch will be sloppy opening and closing.
The other area of mod not mentioned is you have to change the resistor to double vale if using using fm resonator on discriminator,so say its 1.5kohm is its was wide fm (assuming set cannot switch W\N Fm,old HF sets),put a 3k2 in place.
IF its a coil discriminator ,you may have to change that resistor to higher value to get same audio level out as you would in wide fm.

Summarize fm OLD HF rigs for conversions for the techies out there

Turn TX dev down to 2.0khz to a max limited for compatibility with modern CB set sets.
Use a 9 khz 455khz filter for best results can cope with (high and low devs),does not roll off audio in discriminator.
Change value of Noise squelch audio pick of point generally from Audio pin of fm chip,half value for my 18khz noise floor to circuit,just study schematics ull see it.
^khz will prob work fine,but from my experiments and the maths it seems a bit too tight for narrow fm esp if some users using high fm deviation on cb band ( a local problem we had locally with HF/10m radios on CB ops causing incompatibility issues with modern cb kit and arguments you sound low,you sound high or distorting,or worse for approved CB kit users and the squelch chopping like mad because some using 5.0khz fm deviation and couldnt or wouldnt switch his set down to narrow fm and blaming there kit is rubbish,makes me laugh sometimes!)
Data sheet of fm demodulator chip can help determine from example circuits.
Change discriminator resistor across coil\resonator to get same audio level as wide fm @3.0khz dev was (before conversion)on RF sig gen,use a scope to check and compare before and after.
For cb use 1.25khz 60% mod level for modern cb radios on signal generator (remember 6khz HT fitted)
for example on MC3361 scope pin 9 AF out pin.
set rf sig gen 3.0khz dev@-75 dDm output on test set
scope pin 9 make a note of audio level.
Reduce signal gen mod level now to 1.25-1.5khz,see scope and level should be approx half in amplitude.
Alter the decrim coil\resonator until same audio level on pin 9.
Check distortion level is low>5%
Change resistor in squelch feed point to half what ever value fitted check squelch opens and closes correctly at 12dB sinad point or RC spec of HF radio.
Job done your ready to go Narrow fm mode for 10metres and the other one.
Oh don't forget if HF radio has been converted and not FM -wide/narrow switchable and has CTCSS option you'll need to set tone dev to about 300 hz mid tones say 118.8hhz and rest max dev+tone dev
CB say 1.7khz dev @1khz+300hz CTCSS Dev @110.9hz=2.0khz deviation max
hope that makes sense?
Other wise cb dev 2.0khz+300 hz CTCSS Dev @110.9=2.3max dev slightly over but prob in practise ok.

Sorry if this was a long winded response,been doing commercial radio too long to remember,but hopefully give you an clearer insight when mixing old/new/partly new mixtures of radio kit HF and CB into the pot,it can cause a lot of confusion,hearsay,myths ,rumours as too why and pitfalls of hf on cb and export cbs on normal cb systems.

I would say generally any HF radio kit bought recently in last 5-10years generally will have broadband 1.6-30mhz coverage and will work fine.The only issues arise if using Narrow fm mode for cb 10khz channel spacing system,if your HF rig will switch to 2.0-2.5khz then thats should be fine in practise.
Some brands are already fixed on 2.0khz\9khz bandwidth on fm so your good to go
Also bear in mind esp USA marketed radio kit,often they only switch the transmit side of FM deviation down to 2.0khz,not the the RX filter FM-Wide=16khz\FM-Narrow 9-11khz and Audio discriminator level (so have consistent audio levels so don't have to turn volume up ),these method I have even seen on VHF Yaesu equipment a half baked cost cutting approach so beware.
Also see if you can see what filter used in narrow fm section generally be 9khz Fm narrow on HF radio kit
If its say 12/16khz bandwidth be suspect or ask questions from spec data sheet.

Some HF radios use Carrier squelch on fm,this can be annoying if using in a car squelching opening and closing with engine noise or external interference.
Some HF rigs don't have Automatic noise limiters to reduce background noise in AM mode.
Some HF rigs the the Noise Blanker can be worse than a CB radio radio.
Some HF rigs FM can be a affair hit & miss affair esp on older kit and may involve modifications to bring it upto to date with modern times and new regulations.

CB radios are consumer driven if you want cheap and don't want to pay £30-100 or more,well your not going to get high end commercial grade performances in parts quality,build and design compared to say a land mobile radio unit@£300+ or more.
CB radios are getting a lot better in use on SMT and better construction very similar to Commercial standards radios in quality slowly.
BUT IF you want a bomb proof high end ,super stable,super filter 10 pole crystal filters with 100dB down and HIgh dynamic 130dB range,tracking front end 25-32mhz,100% duty cycle component parts and PA stage that's indestructible it will come down to cost and what you can afford.
There's nothing stopping mfrs doing high end cb radios at all, nothing at all,but it comes down to what DRIVE by the consumer user who wants to pay at end of day.
This is partly why cb radio high end radios even basic types we are not seeing high grade versions up to commercial standards,its getting a lot better now slowly but in my eyes not enough.
I would certainly pay buy and use if a Moto grade 27mhz high end radio was produced that was solid.high performance and rugged and sound sparkling on all modes of modulation,rather than compromised performance.
THis could be why The HAM VS CB debate has happened,perhaps user do now want,pay require better high grade cb radios kit,we done the cheap rubbish stuff let move onto something better built I say and do proper field tests before releasing onto market,when are these mfrs going to learning and stop cutting corners & releasing multiple versions to correct problems,at least some mfrs do respond better than others I suppose but that's not the point and not really the topic here as such.
I think as long as you stick to the well branded cb radio and pay a little more generally be OK and happy,may need a slight tweak but most kit 2016/2017 is OK for intended purpose as general CB radio comms uses and DXing uses.

Modern HF radios on CB noting my pitfalls comments and need to be aware things technically ( avoiding the legalities bit) may have a bit more of an edge on filtering,stability 0.5ppm etc and of coarse option high power availability for base \mobile ,DSP filtering,Better IF filtering.
Things to watch for esp AM mode,HF radios can be a bit hit and miss on Am performance depending on brand\type.
Generally it will be 25w carrier 100w PEP @about 90-100%>10% distortion or better.
CB radios generally better on AM than some HF radios I've come across.
ANL and NB function may or maynot be there compared to CB (sometimes performing better)
SSB is the generally way these HF radios are set up for being there main mode of operation.
Keep ur FM power lower if possible on HF radio,the duty cycle sometimes can be questionable as above point SSB is really where these score and Duty cycle lower on PA RF stage and less strain.
CB can be done high power and let amp do all the work for same results,don't forget you'll need BandPass Filters or Min LPF on your cb linear to keep amp spectrum harmonics clean if you want to go down that that route,HF radios generally cleaner in that dept.
I will also comment HF radios need some work done on them even out the box I've found issues esp Icons on Transmit side not set up right on Am and fm rx was a bit hit and miss on squelch chopping in narrow mode,all fixed but besides point.
A stock Am/FM cb radio and AE-6110 performed perfect straight out box on test set gear,I couldn't fault one thing on specs and alignment all spot on,so cb radios not all bad.

Im not saying either good or bad but its down to personal choice at end of day and being aware of the pitfalls is part of battle,esp the internet can be full of B\S and nonsense I've seen posted on forums without any background,reference of any practical knowledge or hands on skills of radio products on bench.

Ask here is your best bet,there plenty of decent professional techs on this forum here if unsure maybe a review forum of performance testing with proper comms test kit would be ultimate answer to users debating HAM HF VS CB would decide best radios ,pitfalls etc if unsure weather to take the costly plunge or just go out and buy a high branded cb legal route.
I think they are two types of cbers

1.General chit chat,cheap and easy use for local comms,car to car mobile comms happy with 5-10 mile+ range
happy to pay £30-120 for radio

2.Dxers SSB or multimode want high end performance,extended ranges+20-50miles line of sight and Skywave 100+miles and beyond,generally home base setups +fm capability for local users.
Happy to pay £155 to £5000+ (depending on deep pockets and nice YL or Understanding Wife)

Maybe there's a Niche untapped market (for cb market) but prob very limited one esp in UK for HF grade quality but in cb radio package unless u start emailing mfrs you wants and cost for this stuff in a legal format they may listen if enough responses sent to them.

Personally I prefer using high quality cb for cb uses,i'm fortunate to have test gear\knowledge to tune up ,alter and improve but generally i can say the better brands work very well,if you want me to drop brand names President,CRT & Albrecht have worked well for me and no big real issues in use (plus the export options),a few little tweaks but that's about it.

Would I want to put a £550+HF rig in car hmm just to talk on FM hmm NO

Would I let me Wife or any other Non Radio Geek(yes shes does use cb radio ) use a complicated HF radio for CB comms NO- too many buttons,modulations set-ups changing modes and dials and knobs.
It would get my non techie partner or friends in a right panic,and she has when trying to find the Volume Control marked as AF GAIN lol

Freebanding etc with some knowledge and knowing certain pitfalls of your HF rig on CB (legalities etc to the side ),correcting operation on FM and knowing the correct way to operate it I would say yes in a mild sense with cautions esp with RF power and Duty cycles on FM mode(amateur HF cannot be compared to commercial grade HF Kit) being lower than a Commercial Grade HF radio,they are 100% duty cycle but rarely have FM\FMN built in,think Alinco did do somes many moons ago.
well thats my £1 maybe £2 (as was long reply),say on this hope I didn't waffle on too much,just wanted to give some background first to help explain reasons as best in a non too technically way coming from a radio\rf background chap here.

Im sure this debate will go on & on till the next 11 meter cycle and we have even more new kit to talk about Ham VS CB
I like both CB and HAm and Commercial kit so no bias.

CB radio for CB radios uses personally here and people who use my kit friends\family works for me fine for local comms around my area on fm,and funny is my preferred band to HAM
HAm HF OK but no good for personal uses ie non licensed user above or non tech heads,great for the DX freebanders mabe & Hammys out there.

73's Rob

[cb4ever104]

Sorry if this was a long winded response

Apology accepted Rob I'm now going to go back to the original post to see how it all started

Sammy

[rpcomms]

ok no probs
was just thinking all the conversions,user operations and pitfalls i've encountered on this subject can be a touchy subject this one!

73's

rob